Aeronca's and LSA weight

[Paul Agaliotis]

With all of the talk about the increase gross weight moving the planes out of LSA specifications I went looking for the regulation. I haven't had any sucess. Does anyone have a link to the regulations that covers this?
Thanks for your help.
Paul

[Mark Julicher]

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ligh ... sChart.pdf

Here are the ASTM light sport consensus standards if that is what you want.

[Mark Julicher]

Problem is that ASTM wants $25 every time you down load any of their standards. AOPA also has a synopsis of the Light Sport criteria.

[Scott Rower]

Paul,

I visited with Earl Downs, the LSA guru, about this today. He said that a sport pilot operating a type certificated airplane under the sport pilot rules, that the airplane has to have continually been operated at it's certificated weight and that weight needs to be under the 1320 lb. limit as per FAR 1.1.

FAR 1.1 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/te ... .1&idno=14

Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than—

(i) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water; or

(ii) 1,430 pounds (650 kilograms) for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

(3) A maximum never-exceed speed (VNE) of not more than 120 knots CAS for a glider.

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.

(5) A maximum seating capacity of no more than two persons, including the pilot.

(6) A single, reciprocating engine, if powered.

(7) A fixed or ground-adjustable propeller if a powered aircraft other than a powered glider.

(8) A fixed or autofeathering propeller system if a powered glider.

(9) A fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.

(10) A nonpressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.

(11) Fixed landing gear, except for an aircraft intended for operation on water or a glider.

(12) Fixed or retractable landing gear, or a hull, for an aircraft intended for operation on water.

(13) Fixed or retractable landing gear for a glider.

The key word here is "continued".

Hope this helps.

Scott

[Carl Prather]

I think what Paul is asking is about talk of raising the current gross weight from the current 1320 to some other, higher weight. I've seen something on the internet but I can't what number is being bantered about or how serious the talk. I thought the new gross weight was something like 1650 lbs but don't take much stock in that number.

[vintageair]

Here's a link to a 112 page document that is the actual FAA rule. It includes the preamble which encompasses the first 91 pages of the document. In that section they discuss, at length, how they made the decisions that ended up being the final ruling. Got a question? Believe me it's already been asked and is in there among the comments submitted prior to the finalization. As with most FAA rulings a lot of the comments are addressed and dismissed with a simple "The FAA does not agree" but they do go into the gross weight issue with some depth.

There have been rumors floating around about increasing the max gross weight ever since the rule was implemented. I've never seen anything concrete to substantiate them and you have to understand that those who really want it or who would benefit from it (folks like us?) don't carry a lot of weight. For one thing, the manufacturers of new LSA aircraft certainly don't want their market flooded with $15,000 used Cessna 150's but, speaking of Cessna, since they are so big and they have clearly had a problem getting the Skycatcher to work at the 1320 lb limit (i.e. you can't fill the tanks with two "American sized" pilots aboard) perhaps pressure from them might persuade the FAA to increase the limit. Even 1400 lbs would help a lot of us.

Anyway - here's the document (AOPA copy) - http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf

[Paul Agaliotis]

Well, I looked over the documents and see a different conclusion. My opinion is the document was used for certification of LSA aircraft. The Aeronca is not an LSA aircraft but a Standard catagory aircraft. It can be operated by a Sport pilot if it meet the requirements of his licence. If the weight is increased it is not able to be operated by a Sport pilot once the weight is reduced he is again able to operate the aircraft.
The Special airworthiness certificate issued to LSA aircraft does indeed need to stay below 1320 to maintain its LSA elegibility.
I'm going to keep looking into this. It gets a little confusing with the closely related terms. Sport Pilot, Light Sport Aircraft and LSA eligible aircraft.
Paul

[Carl Prather]

This is one of two places I saw the LSA gross weight increased mentioned on the internet. It's from the Luscombe Silvaire Yahoo Groups list and as the author says, it qualifies as a rumor and was posted 1/12/10:

Ok:

As far as I am concerned this is pure rumor at this time, although I very much
respect the person that passed it along . . .

Gentleman at the airport on Saturday said he heard from a friend of his that
either works for the Small Airplane Directorate here in KC or is close friends
with somebody who does.

This person said there are some discussions within the FAA to increase the GW
limitation in the sport pilot rule to around 1700 lbs.

Like I said, pure rumor as far as I am concerned and I'll believe it when I see
it in the Federal Register.

Bob Gandy
1946 8A - NC45544

Also, there was an aviation web site where I saw the same thing mentioned just recently but was it just one reference and I didn't think much of it. I wish I could remember where I saw the article. While many pilots have clamored for a gross weight increase over the past five years, this is the first time I've of ever heard of a rumor that an increase in gross weight is being considered by the FAA.

Like Paul says, LSA rules are their own animal. The manufacturer is, in effect, its own FAA. The FAA allows the manufacturer how their Special Airworthiness aircraft can be repaired, maintained and modified as long as the plane remains within the Sport Pilot rules. I heard - once again, a rumor - that a Legend Cub Aircraft owner wanted to repair his fuselage and was told the only permissible repair was to replace the entire fuselage, with no AC43.13-type repairs allowed. I hope this is wrong. Maybe Legend and other LSA makers will someday advise on such matters in detail. If Legend were to go out of business, who is in charge of providing repair, maintenance and modification guidance?

Like Bob Gandy says, I'll believe the gross thing when it's the Federal Register. It would be a good, decent and helpful change.


Carl Prather

[MikeB]

It would be nice if they could (somehow) increase at least the gross weight to include the 150 and 152 Cessna. Depends on what the goals are. If it's to have more aircraft available for pilots who want to fly simple and less expensive aircraft then I think the 150/152 Cessnas fit the catagory. They're certainly easier and safer to handle than a tail dragger in a cross wind. Let's face it, the average Joe isn't going to pop $100,000 for what is essentially an expensive toy. I'd like to have one of the new Champs and droll over them every year at Oshkosh but can't justify the expense, not to mention the insurance. Although, I'm beginning to wonder what I'm going to have (moneywise) in this L16 when and if I ever finish it but guess I have the satisfaction of resurrecting something from the "dead" and (like my wife says) it's kept me busy for four years.

I can understand why the LS manufacturers might not want the market flooded with less expensive planes but I also suspect the price of (used) 150/152's would greatly increase if the GW requirement were lifted. You can buy a pretty good one now for around $20,000 which is around what I paid for my new truck a couple of years ago.

MikeB

[joea]

Do not see it going up to 1700, thats just too big of a jump and would draw in an awful lot of planes.

Would be nice but doubt it would happen. 1500 pounds possibly but ...

[MikeB]

Unsure what the GW of a 150 is (been a long time) 1550# kind of sticks in my mind. Used to own one way back. Nice flying plane. Seems 80 octane was about .80 cents so like I said..way back.......

Probably won't happen but a good thought, anyway.

<MikeB

[oksmle]

My 150E (1965 straight tail) is 1600 pounds.

[gusc]

Scott,

The list you posted about limits to glider speeds is weird in that glider pilots have never had to have a medical?

Raising the LSA weight limit to 1500 would sure be nice since it would include a lot more Champs, all the 140/120 Cessnas and all the Ercoupes. A big help to the potential LSA classic buyer.

I never did understand where 1320 came from, probably from the vapors!

[joea]

Gus,

Believe the 1320 had its roots somewhere in ICAO, with European regs of some sort.

Would agree that it would be nice to see some sort of increase. For instance the 11AC and 11BC Chief's are LSA, however the 11CC Chief is not.

Also the L-16 with the no-bounce gear is not, while a 7AC conversion as long as it does not have the no-bounce gear AND weight conversion I believe is LSA legal.

Joe A

[Orlan H Franks]

The 1320 pound gross weight came from IOCA's 600 Kilogram limit. Simple multi-decimal place metric conversion math will get you a tad over 1320 pounds. However, the US government likes numbers rounded off in it's favor.

Our government generally followed Europe's lead on the LSA rules. However, the European nations DO NOT RECOGNIZE an American pilot's LSA-only license in their country, without regards to aircraft being a N-number or any other nations registration. You have to have an airplane license PLUS a medical to fly similar LSA's in Europe. Gliders in Europe are the same. You've got to have a 3rd class medical to pilot a glider outside the USA whether N-numbered any other country numbered. USA regulations let you 'self-certify' your physical/medical conditions within the regs for gliders only stateside. The rest of the aviation world does not. Orlan