Who got the Best New Production Cylinders?

Ron Babos · Post by **Ron Babos** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 19:35

Paul: Funny, I got the elbows with the kit. As far as the wrist-pin , the plug is pressed in. Not sure you could get one out unless you drilled it out. Could it be that they have changed the design since the start of production? Could it be one of the decks are not square. The engine I just did was out a mile on #4. Oems will do the job, but the price for a 60 year old cylinder made no sense to me.

Ron

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 20:04

I dont know what the problems were. The first 1000hrs were fine prior to the installation and the following 1000hrs were fine after removal. There were random changes of cylinders as required during this time. I installed the cylinders because I " wanted to do it right" and was not satisfied with the results. There was alot of positive talk about this product so I used them. I guess I,m just a slow learner, got burned on their Lyc pistons and the rod bolts. I can,t wait for them to start making Franklin parts. Paul

Ron Babos · Post by **Ron Babos** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 20:24

Paul : Ok, I guess you're not a Superior fan. One question. When you were running the cyls in the 65. was the valve train noise louder than oems or about the same? Using my thumbs on the original valve springs I could push the valves in quite a bit. The new Superior springs were almost impossible to push in with my thumbs. I believe my valve train is somewhat louder because of the extra spring pressures. What are your thoughts on this? Was that interchangeablity chart of any use to you?
Ron

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 21:47

The valve train was not any more/less noisey than before. Now my hearing is not the best, but it sounded the same to me, and no pilot complaints.
The spring pressures, I prefer to keep them as light as possible. It seems to minimize the valve gear wear. My opinion is that the higher spring rates cause a bit of flexing on the camshaft which causes undo case wear. It wasn,t until the later C series when Continental added a steel cam and higher spring pressures. I,ve seen some 0200 cylinders installed on C85,s with the added dampener spring installed, it should be removed if you plan to use it on a C85. The engine is a low RPM engine and the light pressures have not been a problem. I have run some very high RPM pushrod engines and if the springs are light you get float, too high and you start breaking valve gear.
I haven,t been home long enough to open any of my e-mail. I,ll try tonight. Thanks for sending it.
Now I,m not against all of the items Superior makes. But with the claims in the advertisments I think a bit of Snake Oil is included. Paul

Ron Babos · Post by **Ron Babos** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 22:38

Paul: You are correct with the spring pressures. Years ago I use to fly a gyrocopter with an A-80. Takeoff rpms were close to 3000 and never had any valve float, and never did blow it up. They were just pick the best out of a pile of stock springs . Can you imagine the stresses on those rods from those rediculously heavy A-80 5 ring pistons at that rmp? I'll keep that damper spring thing in mind, should an 85 come my way in the future . Thanks
Ron

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 23:31

Ron/Paul: So what are you guys saying? That the sping setup that comes with Superior cylinders is too stiff? We put a set of Superiors on one of our A65's about a year ago and has something like 60 hours on it. I'd sure as h--- (heck

) hate to wear out the case and cam on a $8500 engine job. Bolduc in the Twin Cities took care of the machine work and assembly of the lower case half and our AI installed the Superior cylinders for us. Considering all the Superior cylinders that have been installed in A65's over the past years, it doesn't seem possible that a condition like that would be allowed to pass for too long, but stranger things have happened.

If I can say so, that's the heck of being a mechanic of 45 years (diesel) but not having a AP license and having to rely on someone else to do our work. Due to liability, I just won't do it myself or at least it will be with a AP/AI involved. Don't know if I would have necessarily thought about valve sping tension, etc. but I'm pretty nosy when it comes to putting engines together. Back when I was young pup I used to competely rebuilt the old 8V71 Detroit Diesels, including the blowers. I think they had about a million parts znd a thousand places to leak oil.

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 00:05

Mike,
I,m sure that Superior did their homework. I,ve have not checked their seat pressures at the installed height or at max lift. I follow the Continental manual for my spring height and pressures.
Problems start to occur when we try to make it better. "If an 0200 has three springs than my A65 should also" is what people seem to think. Most are just tring to modernize the engine. It,s a good design and should make rated power no more and no less.
It makes me happy to know that I,m not the only one to have worked on those oil leaking, two stroke,screaming Jimmys.

Ron Babos · Post by **Ron Babos** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 16:58

Mike: No there is no problem with the springs. What Paul is saying and I agree is that the less pressure you can get away with on the valves the better. The new Superiors are probably have a heavy feel to them because they are new. The should be within OEM specs. It's just that the springs we normally have at hand are 60 years old and have 10000 hours on them. Like I mentioned earlier I had to disassemble my engine after 35 hours due to a case problem and went all through the cam and gear areas and found nothing wrong with the operation of the parts, including the Superior stuff. You can sleep well tonight.
Ron

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 23:10

Just had a couple of adult beverages so I probably will sleep well

I wasn't really worried about it as we've never found anything in the screen, but addtional information and a little extra learning never hurt anyone. Fully agree though that extra valve spring tension would certainly cause case and cam wear. Think lots of hot rodders have made that mistake (

I'll just stick in about four extra washers to keep the valves from floating......goodby cam!!).

One of the first steps in troubleshooting is to put or insure that everything is back at orginal factory specs. Second is: DON'T PANIC!! and start with the simplist things first

.

Mike

Paul Agaliotis · Post by **Paul Agaliotis** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 23:36

Very good advice,Mike.
Most aircraft engines dont adapt well to performance improvements. They were made to run at a specified speed and horsepower rating. They tend to be overbuilt, allowing them to reach TBO when run by Aunt Mable or Dale Earnhart.
My Grandpa told me, many years ago, two things,- Keep it simple- and Dont bring anything home you have to unload with a forklift. They have always worked for me.
Cheers, Paul

zero.one.victor · Post by **zero.one.victor** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 01:56

Coming into this discussion a bit late, but thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in. I had a set of ECI "classic cast" steel cylinders installed on my C-145 4 or 5 years ago when it was majored, on the recommendation of the overhaul shop. Cheaper than Superior's to boot. Got about 800 hours on them now & they're doing great. Broke in quick, using Phillips XC20-50 oil (not "mineral oil") per ECI & OHer's instructions,I burn a probably a quart & a half between 40-hour oil changes (spin on filter).
I'd recommend ECI's to anyone based on my experience with them. I've heard some bad reports lately on Superiors FWIW.

Eric

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 16:11

I've heard good things about ECI cylinders, but I don't believe they make new A65's. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Superior the only one making new A65 cylinders? As I posted above, we put a new set of Superiors on one of our A65's and after about 75 hours....so far, so good.
I recently called PAP and they quoted me $3550 for a set of A65 Superiors (plus shipping). Regarding break in oil, I sometimes wonder how necessary it is in this day in age to use a mineral 'break in oil'. Every engine I've overhauled for the past 25 years (trucks, tractors, etc.) has had 15/40 or some type of multi-weight oil and I've never had a problem with the rings seating. I know ECI recommends 20/50 Phillips XC.........for whatever it's worth, but seems Superior wants mineral......

.

Ron Babos · Post by **Ron Babos** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 16:49

Mike: I broke my Superiors in on Phillips 20/50 xc. It is the same base stock except for AD additives. The additives will have no adverse effects on engine break-in. The only oil I know of that is disasterous for break-in is Shell 15/50, which has some synthetic added to it.
Glazing is caused from thick , cold oil on a really hot cylinder.
Remember the old days of car break-ins? Usually a much thinner oil for the first 500 miles. Multis have done away with that requirement.
The best way to botch the break- in is use heavy oil, take-off before oil has reached a normal temp, and cook that tar into the honing marks. At this point, you're done like dinner. Rehoning is the only fix.
Ron

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 19:51

With you on that, Ron; except it's pretty hard to get much temperature up
in cold Wisconsin/Minnesota, etc. unless it's July (Oshkosh time). Probably the worst thing you could do is to try to break in a set of new cylinders from November until April. Even during the summer I seldom see much over 160 oil temp on any of the old A65 Champs. Had my winter cover on the other day when it was close to 50 degrees ambient and still barely made 160 degrees. In the winter on skis, we probably get less than 140 (at least my oil pressure stays up). When I had my Cherokee I could still get 180 with the winter cover on at 20 degree or so, but I don't think these little A65's burn enough fuel to make a lot of engine heat.

Ron Babos · Post by **Ron Babos** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 17:47

Mike: I hear you with the temps. Mine is all blocked off even for summer. The hottest I've seen is 195 , but it's too hot to fly on those 90 degree days anyway. This time of year I'm struggling to hit 165. after an hour of flying. I'm always happy to see the majic 175-180. First ran mine in April, but I did preheat the oil before pouring it in the engine. Best thing I could have done. If you can get through that first hour of high friction , further flying probably won't glaze it.
Ron